Get Connected Podcast Episode 7: Managing the CSP Cloud Like a Hyperscaler

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0:03 get connected

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0:13 in this series we discuss the various

0:16 issues shaping your industry how the

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0:36 hello listener let's get connected

0:38 [Music]

0:41 my name is chris lewis

0:43 by day i'm an independent industry

0:46 analyst

0:47 by night as i'm sure you know by now i'm

0:49 a podcaster

0:53 welcome to get connected where we delve

0:56 into the issues shaping the networking

0:58 industry and the experiences we all

1:01 benefit from by being better connected

1:05 in this episode we're talking about the

1:07 underlying network infrastructure and

1:10 how we manage it for the modernization

1:12 of the telco the new generation of csps

1:15 and how they build their services to

1:17 address all of those evolving customer

1:19 requirements

1:20 now i'm always excited when we build the

1:22 frameworks for these podcasts but i'm

1:24 especially excited today because we're

1:26 going right back to the basis of

1:28 creating the technology that actually

1:31 addresses the issue of building this

1:33 underlying network infrastructure and

1:35 delivering it for the future of the

1:36 industry

1:37 today i'm joined by two people one who's

1:40 created the underlying technology and

1:42 the other whose challenge is to

1:44 implement the technology for the modern

1:46 csp welcome mansour and welcome ben hi

1:50 great to be here glad to be here

1:52 so mansour let's kick off with you could

1:54 you please introduce yourself and your

1:56 role to our listener he's hi i'm mansur

1:59 karam uh i was previously founder and

2:02 ceo of abstract and i'm currently vp

2:04 products at juniper responsible for the

2:06 appstore business thank you mansour

2:08 pleasure to have you with us and ben

2:10 tell me about yourself hey everyone i'm

2:12 ben baker i've been with juniper for

2:14 about 10 years now and before that many

2:16 years in and around the networking and

2:18 communication service provider space

2:20 right now i'm responsible for marketing

2:21 our cloud and data center portfolio as

2:24 well as business case analysis for

2:26 customers across the entire juniper

2:27 portfolio i'm sure we'll come back to

2:29 that business analysis later on in the

2:31 episode but mansour to begin with

2:33 perhaps just setting context for us you

2:35 know what is appstra is it a is it a

2:37 toolkit is it a management platform what

2:39 is this abstract thing that you created

2:41 yeah abstract is a management solution

2:44 for networks what it does is that it

2:46 automates all aspects of designing

2:48 building and operating your data center

2:50 network essentially the entire

2:53 life cycle we've invented this concept

2:55 called intent based networking the idea

2:58 is that instead of an operator

3:01 dealing with

3:02 how the specifics of the commands etc

3:05 they're dealing with the what right the

3:07 outcomes are trying to achieve in terms

3:09 of connectivity security

3:12 quality of experience etc so it's a

3:14 really powerful approach to automation

3:16 and what it does it delivers this

3:18 unparalleled operational simplicity

3:21 which means that now customers can go

3:23 quickly but they don't have to get

3:25 involved into the details so they can

3:27 really go at the speed of the business

3:29 while you know since the software is

3:31 taking care of all of the details

3:33 it provides unrivaled levels of

3:36 reliability reliability is really key in

3:39 networking you want to achieve the

3:41 highest levels of reliability given how

3:43 foundational the network is and also

3:46 because now you're dealing at the

3:48 outcome level

3:50 and you're not dealing with the

3:51 specifics of the how we have these

3:53 layers of abstractions which makes the

3:55 solution completely multi-vendor meaning

3:58 that it works with equipment from

4:00 multiple vendors not just juniper and

4:03 this is actually key to many

4:05 organizations out there and especially

4:06 service providers because you created

4:09 the motivation behind this was very much

4:10 in that in the data center

4:12 and so it was an enterprise oriented

4:15 development so what was that your pure

4:17 motivation or did you you saw this

4:19 evolution of the requirement of the

4:20 underlying network how did you see that

4:23 what motivated you to get it do in the

4:24 first place what motivated us and that

4:26 was back in 2014 when we started apps

4:29 was that there was a lot of innovation

4:31 happening on the device side you know it

4:34 used to be that

4:36 equipment was only we only were able to

4:38 configure it using command line the

4:40 command line interface but then

4:43 vendors were introducing apis powerful

4:45 apis that you could use to

4:48 both configure these devices but also

4:50 collect telemetry from these devices and

4:53 these innovations came because they were

4:55 requirements from the clouds the

4:58 hyperscalers at the time that you know

4:59 they were emerging and they were

5:01 building these data centers that scaled

5:03 and they needed you know a programmatic

5:05 approach to manage their infrastructures

5:08 and so

5:09 you know they were leading but then

5:11 for every enterprise out there the

5:13 network was becoming increasingly

5:16 foundational increasingly critical to

5:18 everything they were trying to achieve

5:20 you know gardner has famously said that

5:23 you're three times more likely to fail

5:25 at your digital transformation

5:27 initiative if you don't transform your

5:29 network first and so enterprises needed

5:31 to transform their networks and you had

5:34 the apis but what you lacked was the

5:37 tools you really didn't have management

5:39 solutions at the time that were helping

5:42 them to get there and so you know a lot

5:44 of times they were just managing their

5:46 networks

5:47 device by device by kind of typing in

5:50 the commands to configure those devices

5:53 and if something happened in their

5:55 networks that really didn't have the

5:56 right visibility in order to figure out

5:58 what's going on so that was the

6:01 motivation networks were becoming

6:03 critical not just for the hyperscalers

6:05 not just for service providers but for

6:07 every enterprise out there and there was

6:10 a big gap in terms of the tools that

6:13 will allow those operators to manage

6:15 those networks in an automated way to

6:18 help them transform the network for them

6:20 to be successful in their digital

6:21 transformations it's so encouraging

6:23 because as an analyst who at one time

6:25 specialized in network management it

6:27 delights me to hear how we we're

6:29 bringing all these things together to be

6:30 able to manage it in a in a unified way

6:33 rather than having to understand how

6:35 every separate management system worked

6:36 which was always been a nightmare given

6:38 the way that the network evolves within

6:40 this service provider environment now

6:42 ben with your service provider hat on or

6:45 through a service provider lens how do

6:46 you see this well it's an interesting

6:49 question of how the abstract philosophy

6:51 fits in with the juniper telco

6:53 philosophy and we actually tried

6:55 building a dc fabric management solution

6:57 ourselves a few years ago

6:59 but we found it incredibly difficult to

7:01 do and we eventually realized that

7:04 hey there's a product out there that's

7:05 exactly like what we wanted to build and

7:07 it was mature that a growing customer

7:10 base so we bought it and um you know as

7:12 mansour touched on a couple of these

7:14 things abstra fits well with how juniper

7:16 has always approached the telco

7:18 marketplace for example in terms of

7:20 being open

7:21 appstore is multi-vendor and nearly all

7:24 of the environments that juniper

7:25 operates in today are multi-vendor

7:28 and also if you think about reliability

7:30 you know historically this could just be

7:32 the one

7:33 single word that you would use to

7:35 describe what drives a telco business

7:37 and and as it turns out

7:39 reliability is a key founding principle

7:41 of abstract and the idea that the

7:43 blueprints that appstr is based upon

7:45 essentially

7:46 give you that reliability and

7:48 consistency and this is what ultimately

7:51 gives you speed of operations and as

7:53 menswear point out this is one of the

7:55 key insights that we can all learn from

7:57 the cloud hyperscalers who are masters

7:59 at

8:00 managing the their infrastructure so

8:02 junepro has this fantastic solution for

8:04 the overlay and that's our contrail

8:06 product that everyone knows about that

8:09 orchestrates cloud workloads and virtual

8:11 networks and now with appstore we have

8:13 this fantastic solution to manage the

8:16 data center underlay very interesting

8:18 and i'm sure we'll come back to that

8:19 underlay overlay topic

8:21 conversely that leads me to ask you

8:23 mansor why juniper for abstract the

8:26 first thing i'd say is what ben

8:27 mentioned this uh open culture right

8:31 from the beginning juniper was a

8:32 challenger in the networking space and

8:35 they led by having open is a key

8:38 foundation right and so they're you know

8:40 very involved in standards

8:42 uh you know ensuring their their

8:43 solutions work in multi-vendor

8:45 environments and so for us at abstract

8:48 we deeply cared that

8:50 the technology that we brought in was

8:52 going to continue in the same fashion

8:54 and not only was it important to

8:56 abstract it was also important to our

8:58 customers you know they really cared

9:00 about the multi-vendor aspect the open

9:02 aspect of the solution and indeed

9:04 juniper was committed to that they

9:06 committed for abstract as in the

9:09 management solution not only to work

9:10 with juniper switches but also

9:12 cisco and arista and even sonic which is

9:16 you know in open source network

9:18 operating system and we support all of

9:20 these today so that was an important

9:23 aspect

9:24 the other of course is juniper scale

9:26 right in terms of the number of sellers

9:29 out there their service organizations

9:32 these are world-class

9:34 organizations that really could reach

9:36 customers you know in every country that

9:38 renault were engaged in 63 countries and

9:41 you know we couldn't have done it

9:43 without the help of the larger juniper

9:46 organization

9:47 the other thing i'd say is juniper in

9:49 addition to it having this this open

9:51 approach they're all about uh

9:54 differentiated technologies best of

9:55 breed technologies uh you know of course

9:58 their switches their security solutions

10:00 but then you know what they brought in

10:01 with the acquisitions uh like

10:04 mist there is a lot

10:06 there in terms of technologies that we

10:08 felt if we were to integrate and kind of

10:11 leverage then we can deliver a really

10:15 unique solution to our customers the

10:18 unified uh solutions think of it as a

10:20 single stack uh solution that you know

10:24 not is not only valid for the data

10:26 center but also to service providers and

10:29 campers and ultimately you know we talk

10:31 about data centers but really what

10:33 you're seeing customers do is integrate

10:35 these different areas you know that were

10:38 siloed in the past and so having you

10:40 know access to all of these technologies

10:42 really felt like we could address our

10:45 customer problems uniquely

10:48 you know and last but not least let's

10:49 say you know just from a pragmatic

10:50 standpoint customers buy software you

10:53 know especially management software

10:55 when they're buying the hardware and i

10:58 think for us as in when we're an

11:00 independent company that was kind of

11:01 part of our challenge is to find those

11:03 deals like when is the customer actually

11:06 buying hardware

11:08 now being part of juniper of course we

11:10 we have access to all of those deals you

11:12 know juniper is very aware of when

11:14 customers are making these hardware

11:16 purchases and you know essentially we

11:18 can have that software conversations

11:20 along with that that's so true and what

11:22 i observe as an analyst is that

11:23 increasingly

11:25 we always have to say of course that

11:26 every csp every telco is different every

11:28 country market is different so many

11:30 parameters shaping it but the breaking

11:32 down of these silos is allowing the csps

11:35 to actually build solutions build

11:36 infrastructure build platforms build

11:38 services which actually address those

11:40 future requirements which is a change

11:41 from the old model where we used to

11:43 build the technology and eventually

11:44 expose the service to the customer so

11:46 it's a new generation that's correct

11:49 so that gives us the background why

11:51 juniper for appstra but more importantly

11:53 ben why appstr for telco well when

11:56 you're talking data center for the telco

12:00 world the sp world at a high level

12:02 there's basically three use cases number

12:04 one enterprise i.t applications so every

12:07 sp is in some sense just like any other

12:10 enterprise and they need to run their

12:12 internal application somewhere whether

12:14 that's erp systems or crm hr

12:18 oss bss of course

12:20 and no doubt there is a move to public

12:22 cloud and sas with these workloads but

12:24 there is still and will continue to be

12:26 plenty of sp owned and operated i.t data

12:29 center infrastructure

12:31 second use case for telcos is to deliver

12:33 managed services from their data centers

12:36 an important customer that juniper

12:38 appstore has for this use case is t

12:39 systems which of course is part of

12:41 deutsche telecom

12:43 the third use case is telco cloud and a

12:45 subset of that you can think of is edge

12:47 cloud an important customer we have here

12:50 for juniper contrail and appstress

12:52 telefonica

12:53 and this use case of telco and edgecloud

12:56 is really interesting and there's so

12:57 much activity in these areas and i don't

13:00 think it's a stretch to say that one of

13:02 the most important strategic decisions

13:04 facing most sps around the world today

13:07 is whether you should work with the

13:08 hyperscalers the public cloud providers

13:11 or should you do it yourself

13:13 and we think the answer is yes you

13:15 should do both so we think it would be a

13:18 huge mistake for an sp to just

13:20 seed that telco cloud to hyperscalers

13:22 there has to be a diy motion sps should

13:26 develop in-house cloud-native platforms

13:28 and technologies and expertise to

13:29 protect their long-term interests

13:31 and to maintain some control and

13:33 leverage for their business but at the

13:35 same time sp should also develop

13:38 balanced symbiotic relationships with

13:40 the public cloud providers and the

13:42 juniper portfolio can help in sp here

13:45 it changes the economics and gives you a

13:48 positive business case for building and

13:50 operating out your own cloud

13:51 infrastructure i think that that sort of

13:53 economics and technology combined

13:56 really fascinates me because ultimately

13:58 it is a supply and demand issue it's a

13:59 supply chain issue and like you say it's

14:02 not whether you work with the hype

14:03 skills it's how you work with the

14:04 hyperscalers and mansour from your point

14:06 of view you you touched upon this

14:08 bringing together almost a single stack

14:10 of the sort of the contrary an abstract

14:12 from a telco point of view do you have

14:14 any further thoughts on that you know as

14:16 as ben mentioned contrail handles the

14:19 overlay whereas abstra handles the

14:22 underlay both are of course

14:24 really important and as ben mentioned we

14:26 have customers such as telefonica who is

14:29 deploying both

14:30 you know i think of the underrate as

14:32 like the equipment itself all the

14:33 devices including the topology all of

14:35 the protocols that you know essentially

14:37 you're deploying uh in your

14:39 infrastructure to make it all work

14:42 when we're talking about the networking

14:43 equipment itself appstra manages these

14:46 whereas the overlay is really about the

14:48 services that uh including some network

14:50 services that are being deployed on the

14:53 server right and you can imagine that

14:55 these two things have to be integrated

14:57 and indeed you know we do integrate apps

15:00 with contrail so for example if you have

15:03 some security service that needs to be

15:06 deployed on a networking device maybe

15:09 because you have server servers or

15:11 storage that's connected to these

15:12 devices to which you're applying a

15:15 security policy then abstract will take

15:17 care of that whereas if you need to

15:19 deploy a security policy on a server

15:22 then contrail would do that and these

15:24 are generally two teams and so

15:28 you want to provide the visibility of

15:30 you know of one domain into the other

15:32 domain and so you know bring in the

15:35 server policy the visibility that these

15:37 server policies into

15:38 into abstract so that the networking

15:40 teams have visibility into that and vice

15:44 versa you're right that automation that

15:46 changing the economics changing the the

15:48 way in which the csps think about these

15:50 pieces because in the past some of that

15:52 was separate silos separate teams like

15:54 you say but it's giving that visibility

15:56 and the ability to manage it you know

15:58 through that one perspective correct

16:01 and in fact with our newest release here

16:04 we're introducing some specific

16:07 capabilities which are

16:09 targeted at

16:11 telcos

16:13 specifically around multi-tenancy for

16:16 example and

16:17 uh edge computing so the with telco

16:20 specifically what we're seeing or

16:22 especially with telco what we're seeing

16:24 is that

16:25 these networks are getting more and more

16:26 distributed and closer to

16:29 the edge and so having the ability from

16:31 one management platform to

16:34 operate and automate not only

16:37 centralized data centers but distributed

16:39 data centers across many geographical

16:42 areas from one management platform

16:44 becomes critical and this is essentially

16:46 what we have introduced in our latest

16:48 release great yeah and you're absolutely

16:50 right so ironically having we're taking

16:52 some of the lessons from the

16:53 hyperscalers and what they did at scale

16:55 in in the cloud and we're bringing that

16:57 right down to wherever the wherever the

16:59 edge manifests itself correct but ben

17:01 you know what are you hearing

17:02 specifically from your sp customers you

17:04 mentioned a couple in your previous

17:06 answer you know what are they asking for

17:08 and what are they looking to achieve

17:10 so sps are building out 5g

17:13 telco clouds edge clouds new managed

17:15 services and telco data center

17:17 environments in general are

17:19 bigger and messier than a typical

17:21 enterprise they've usually been in

17:23 business for many decades

17:25 they just have more tools more

17:26 acquisitions more legacy and sps

17:29 understand that automation is absolutely

17:31 critical if you think about the

17:33 economics of the telco business on the

17:35 cost side it's about capex and opex and

17:39 opex is

17:40 at least four times as much

17:43 in terms of

17:44 you know size as the capex is

17:47 and so

17:48 you know automation is necessary for

17:51 tackling that opex piece and you know

17:54 most opex discussions start necessarily

17:58 with dry process discussions that you

18:00 know it's not glamorous but but it's you

18:03 know absolutely critical to go through

18:05 process and how you're going to automate

18:06 those different processes

18:08 and

18:09 without automation to simplify

18:11 operations all these new initiatives

18:13 that we're talking about they just

18:14 become more stuff to manage you know

18:17 without a heavy dose of automation

18:19 you're just building out a bigger

18:21 operational mess for yourself

18:23 but it's interesting that network

18:24 operators

18:26 often start with a different paradigm

18:28 for dc network automation than maybe an

18:30 enterprise or a hyperscaler does

18:33 and sp has you know no surprise here a

18:36 telco network-centric view of the world

18:39 they first think about network or

18:41 service orchestration and nms's you know

18:43 network management systems and wan

18:46 automation

18:47 before they think about data center

18:49 fabric management for example and of

18:51 course all the above are important so

18:53 these new sp cloud initiatives are

18:56 multi-year projects where we work

18:57 closely alongside our customers

19:00 it is is that changing nature of what

19:01 the the service provider of the csp is

19:04 and it just occurs to me that what you

19:06 just talked about then there is a

19:07 natural progression from that which says

19:09 actually what are we actually delivering

19:11 to the end customer so all the way

19:13 through all of these layers i think man

19:15 saw you mentioned this earlier on about

19:16 using apis and the visibility all the

19:18 way through you know at the end of the

19:19 day what is it we deliver to our

19:21 customers what the customers pay for you

19:23 know they pay for that fixed and mobile

19:24 broadband for those business services

19:26 and for being part of other uh the value

19:28 chain so yeah we need the basics the

19:30 business process stuff to work cleanly

19:32 and we need to be able to bring all of

19:33 these parts together to make sure that

19:36 that connectivity piece becomes the

19:37 essential

19:38 underpinning of the way the the

19:40 offerings get built and manso you know

19:42 this this has been your baby you've

19:44 developed it it's grown

19:45 two things how do you see apps are

19:47 evolving and what commonalities do you

19:50 see between service provider enterprise

19:52 and hyperscaler networks

19:55 when i think of

19:56 the the abstract evolution the first

19:58 thing i'll say is it would continue

20:00 always you know evolving improving the

20:02 technology for example by adding more

20:05 flexibility so that we have the ability

20:07 to address

20:08 more use cases like for example you know

20:11 as i mentioned with our

20:12 newest release we now have support for

20:15 edge or this is because we're now

20:17 supporting these collapsed spine kind of

20:20 topologies which is an increment

20:22 compared to what we had before which now

20:24 allows us to support these distributed

20:26 edge data centers and so we will

20:28 continue doing that evolving the

20:30 technology and also adding more

20:33 telemetry always improving the

20:35 intelligence of the solution that would

20:37 continue happening but in addition to

20:39 that

20:40 what excites me is that we're seeing a

20:42 convergence right first you know between

20:44 the different what used to be different

20:47 segments like you know campus and data

20:50 center

20:50 and when when you think now of a campus

20:53 solution it includes wi-fi it includes

20:56 the switches themselves so the wired

20:57 network but it also includes sd1 and

21:01 usually these campuses are connected to

21:03 data centers often you have you know

21:06 data centers within the campuses

21:07 themselves

21:08 and you know these data centers are

21:10 typically connected to the cloud and so

21:12 you no longer have these silos rather

21:15 you have

21:16 kind of a continuum and you know what we

21:19 need is deliver to our customers tools

21:22 that help them

21:23 manage this network in the context of

21:26 this continuum and certainly juniper has

21:29 lots of exciting products there and

21:31 technologies like mists and marvelous

21:34 with ai and machine learning and you can

21:37 imagine that integrations there will

21:40 really deliver a lot of value to our

21:42 customers in the context of this more

21:46 continuous spectrum

21:47 and so that's you know how i see apps

21:50 right evolving and you know to me i see

21:52 it as a really exciting development i

21:54 see a lot of exciting things for the

21:56 future

21:57 and you know when it comes to the

21:58 communality between enterprise and

21:59 service provider what i'll say is that

22:01 there is convergence there as well

22:04 for example it used to be that only

22:06 service providers cared about these five

22:08 nines of reliability

22:11 but you can imagine

22:12 that enterprises today they care as much

22:16 about reliability we've talked about how

22:19 networks are at the core of everything

22:21 they do and we've all heard stories of

22:24 you know networks failing causing

22:26 disastrous damage to the business and so

22:29 reliability is becoming really critical

22:32 to enterprises as well so we're seeing

22:34 convergence of requirements there

22:36 another example is multi-vendor a

22:38 multi-vendor was always critical to

22:41 service providers and it used to be that

22:43 enterprises were happy to buy you know

22:45 all their equipment from one vendor but

22:48 increasingly again because of how

22:50 critical these networks have become

22:52 it's become necessary for these

22:54 enterprises to

22:55 have dual sourced uh strategies uh you

22:59 can imagine that today with supply chain

23:02 issues that is even more top of mind or

23:04 makes it at least that much more clearer

23:07 to these enterprises if you're locked

23:09 into your only one vendor then if that

23:12 vendor doesn't have equipment for you by

23:15 the time you need it then you're dead in

23:16 the water you should have a much much

23:18 better

23:19 chance if you had more than one vendor

23:21 in your environment and so this is

23:23 another example multi-vendor which you

23:25 know now is kind of a requirement across

23:28 both enterprises and service providers

23:30 it's fascinating isn't it that you know

23:32 we we now look at that notion of

23:34 reliability and certainly we don't know

23:36 necessarily where the resource sits to

23:38 deliver that where the workflow goes how

23:40 the process goes so actually managing

23:42 all of that having the visibility

23:44 through something like abstract is

23:46 absolutely critical so that we can

23:48 manage it so if anything does happen to

23:50 go wrong that we've got the visibility

23:52 the reach through to be able to to

23:54 redress the problem yeah there was in

23:57 ads it i think it was a tire ad from the

23:59 i think it was the 1980s uh

24:02 power is nothing without control right

24:05 so i'd say here speed is nothing without

24:07 reliability right you know if you move

24:10 fast and you break things in networking

24:12 and that's that's that's worse

24:14 you know but what is really important

24:17 for enterprises to deliver

24:19 on their

24:20 requirements for their customers is to

24:22 move fast because they need to move at

24:25 the speed of the business

24:26 but

24:27 critically they have to do it reliably

24:30 with you know 100 percent reliability

24:32 mansur you're absolutely right the

24:34 changing nature of what the server

24:36 provide has to do managing delivering

24:39 all of those services wherever they

24:40 might be required and it's that change

24:42 in almost in structure that inside out

24:45 model becoming an outside in where the

24:46 demands on the network are so many and

24:48 varied so we have to have that

24:50 visibility we have to be able to manage

24:52 all of those moving parts in order to be

24:55 that critical component contributing to

24:57 the digital marketplace

24:59 so my thanks to you mansour and ben for

25:01 fantastic contributions mansour from

25:03 your origins of appstra building it up

25:06 and growing that business ben with your

25:08 perspective from the service providers

25:09 and what's coming out the marketplace

25:11 today thank you both thank you thank you

25:14 so there you have it listener we've

25:16 talked about appstra

25:17 building the tools the infrastructure

25:19 the platform that is essential as the

25:22 blurring of lines takes place between

25:25 the data center the hyperscaler the

25:27 enterprise and the service provider

25:29 we acknowledge that the differences

25:31 exist within every organization every

25:34 telco in every country and therefore

25:36 being able to adapt and build the

25:38 services and manage the services in

25:40 relation to the customer the supply

25:42 chain becomes absolutely essential the

25:45 manageability of all those moving parts

25:48 is what we need to aim for and as a

25:50 service provider community we need to

25:52 understand all of those moving parts and

25:54 especially how it rolls up to deliver

25:57 the services down to the consumer and

25:59 the business market

26:03 now all the remains is a few thank yous

26:06 thank you to juniper for the opportunity

26:08 to dig into this underlying network

26:10 fabric and its importance for

26:12 underpinning the future of the telecoms

26:14 industry

26:15 and thank you to you too for listening i

26:18 look forward to talking to you again

26:20 soon

26:22 you've been listening to get connected

26:25 you've heard from us now we'd love to

26:27 hear from you

26:29 tell us what you think via twitter using

26:31 the handle at juniper networks

26:34 and if you like what you've heard

26:36 remember to tell your colleagues and

26:38 friends

26:39 thanks for listening to get connected